Epiphany! Now I get why the f2p kids hate the Classic expansions.

[Kamandi888]

I have been on this forum for a few weeks and got some great feedback.

Cataclysm will begin the Golden Age of twinking again!

More classes, more gear choice, less focus on the almost 20 year old 19s bracket and the, what I find inaccessible, modern f2p scene*.

But I ran into some negativity about the Classic expansions I did not anticipate.

One post said -- expansions are like playing on private servers.

Many said -- too many brackets is bad for all brackets.

But it wasn't until today I realized what the real "classic hate" comes from.

One of the BIG trends in twinking is the "ladder lists" the ranking, the c==k measuring, the constant competitive need to create a hierarchy.

To do this you need an "Armory" -- a site which shows your gear and achievements and HKs, where ones gear and build can be linked, then adored or ridiculed.

Classic expansions don't have "armories" that I can find.

The old 19s and f2p people seem to need this recognition, this competition, this hierarchy.

This is why they don't like Classic expansions.

But while they are reading the "rankings" and working on that 17th AGM or tending the garden in their little house, or farming old raids in their cure little outfits, I will be pwning noobs in the 14 and 29 brackets.

Thanks! Good night and good luck.

*Retail is so different from the last time I played, I would not even know where to begin, and from what little I have read about the modern f2p scene , there are WAY too many moving parts to be fun for me.

 

[Blackberryy]

I have been on this forum for a few weeks and got some great feedback.

Cataclysm will begin the Golden Age of twinking again!

More classes, more gear choice, less focus on the almost 20 year old 19s bracket and the, what I find inaccessible, modern f2p scene*.

But I ran into some negativity about the Classic expansions I did not anticipate.

One post said -- expansions are like playing on private servers.

Many said -- too many brackets is bad for all brackets.

But it wasn't until today I realized what the real "classic hate" comes from.

One of the BIG trends in twinking is the "ladder lists" the ranking, the c==k measuring, the constant competitive need to create a hierarchy.

To do this you need an "Armory" -- a site which shows your gear and achievements and HKs, where ones gear and build can be linked, then adored or ridiculed.

Classic expansions don't have "armories" that I can find.

The old 19s and f2p people seem to need this recognition, this competition, this hierarchy.

This is why they don't like Classic expansions.

But while they are reading the "rankings" and working on that 17th AGM or tending the garden in their little house, or farming old raids in their cure little outfits, I will be pwning noobs in the 14 and 29 brackets.

Thanks! Good night and good luck.

*Retail is so different from the last time I played, I would not even know where to begin, and from what little I have read about the modern f2p scene , there are WAY too many moving parts to be fun for me.

I actually think you hit the nail on the head with this one. A bunch of crotchety old narcissists that gate keep everything else on this site is why it died and why that exposure does not get spread through this community to classic much at all. It’s sad to see a “community” hate themselves and others so much they can’t just allow anything they deem unworthy to flourish.

 

[Conzil]

Nice theory, but it's the Classic people that have made majority of the "Best of" threads

 

[shanker]

all versions of WOW kids wish they were kids again and relive what was and will be no more.

issue with classic versions, they are short lived just like private servers.

 

[chelly]

To be fair, “classic” expansion tier lists were already written and solidified long prior to their actual blizzard re-releases, either from their actual retail era or from min/max private server guilds.

It’s an issue with gaming in general, that everyone is always looking to only play the “S-tier” or wanting to “parse” better than anyone else. Too much of this mentality brings an unhealthy amount of competitiveness to an unfortunately dwindling population. I think there’s many other ways than armory that people use to achieve this false dopamine rush.

At least in NA, the f2p scene really went 2 ways after the bracket change ended reliable pops in retail. The less toxic players went to go play classic and have fun, and the extremely toxic players rolled 29s and sat in multi-hour queues for the chance to bully any sparse pockets of remaining 20s.

 

[Bakedaflol]

I have been on this forum for a few weeks and got some great feedback.

Cataclysm will begin the Golden Age of twinking again!

More classes, more gear choice, less focus on the almost 20 year old 19s bracket and the, what I find inaccessible, modern f2p scene*.

But I ran into some negativity about the Classic expansions I did not anticipate.

One post said -- expansions are like playing on private servers.

Many said -- too many brackets is bad for all brackets.

But it wasn't until today I realized what the real "classic hate" comes from.

One of the BIG trends in twinking is the "ladder lists" the ranking, the c==k measuring, the constant competitive need to create a hierarchy.

To do this you need an "Armory" -- a site which shows your gear and achievements and HKs, where ones gear and build can be linked, then adored or ridiculed.

Classic expansions don't have "armories" that I can find.

The old 19s and f2p people seem to need this recognition, this competition, this hierarchy.

This is why they don't like Classic expansions.

But while they are reading the "rankings" and working on that 17th AGM or tending the garden in their little house, or farming old raids in their cure little outfits, I will be pwning noobs in the 14 and 29 brackets.

Thanks! Good night and good luck.

*Retail is so different from the last time I played, I would not even know where to begin, and from what little I have read about the modern f2p scene , there are WAY too many moving parts to be fun for me.

I don't necessarily agree with all of it.. But I still think there's a point to what you're saying.
We love all our GF'd bank-trash, character-specific progress, and armory-url.
It's scary to start over when you feel safe

I consider myself a Vet/f2p main, who likes to dip my toes in other brackets, expansions, and despite quitting years ago, even end-game every now and then, if current season is looking fun!
It's something I'd suggest to any and every1 who spends alot of time on their F2Ps, or in any single bracket.

It's nice to get out of your comfort zone, and do something else every now and then.. It keeps the game fresh and fun

CATA HYPE

 

[tence]

I may be totally off on this, but what drew me away from classic was that it was already decided/solved for the most part. Everyone knew all the gear to get, which classes were superior, and terrain exploits/gameplay advantages.

The most fun I have is discovering what works and what doesn't when a new expansion drops. Combing over dungeon journal and wowhead to find what I would consider to be the optimal gearset to use and then testing it out and tweaking/iterating through trial and error as the expansion progresses is so fun! Unfortunately this is entirely lost within the true classic era expansions in my personal opinion.

When I first joined the 20s bracket I had an idea of how to gear/play hpally that was completely counter to what everyone else thought was the way to go, and it was really fun for me to go against the grain in a successful way given the limitations of a level cap. If you look at the people that have stuck with the 20/ftp bracket long term, they seem to share that mindset of seeing how far they can take things given the limitations (be it achievement hunting, gearing, or collecting, etc). If everyone has already figured all that out, where's the fun in that?

 

[Dev]

A lot of accurate things have already been said, but I'll add my two cents. Competition can keep a community alive, until it overpowers everything else. A community exists because of a certain amount of respect and care among its members, and when you lose those, that's when competition eats a community alive. The Retail community alone isn't the cause, it's the meta-chasers of every version that set the standard of success, and the players that then choose to judge others and their own experience based on that standard.

As Chelly already said, this isn't just a WoW problem, it's a gaming problem. When people are taught to measure value by stats, it can easily lead to devaluing things like fun, the experience, and camaraderie. And the trouble with that, of course, is it's then up to the individual to choose what they value while existing within a system that consistently reinforces values that can easily become toxic.

That said, I don't think competition is bad in itself, but like many things, can be made bad in its application. Extremes have a way of creating that. If we as the players want a healthier environment, we have to facilitate that.

When it comes to Cata Classic, I remain skeptical it will usher in the arrival of a new golden age, simply because the current state of the game is spread too thin. As has been said in another recent post, the current game is split. It's split between Classic and Retail, split by versions of Chromie Time, split by War Mode, split by realms, and split by phasing on top of this. If you don't already have someone you're intentionally teaming up with, the odds of randomly meeting in the open world have never been less. In some ways, these systems have worked in our favor as twinks, but that doesn't change their isolating result. Cata will no-doubt be fun for many, and I choose to see that as the point of it.


P.S. retail f2p is where I reside simply because, like Tence, I enjoy the challenge of navigating its complicated and sometimes broken systems and seeing what can be accomplished. In terms of long-standing play, it's natural to want to hold on to the items we've worked so hard to obtain, and I know I'm not the only one who doesn't have the desire to acquire it all again. But after that initial accomplishment, I've enjoyed the game least when I constantly measured my stats, and most when I did nothing but jump between rooftops in Stormwind. I set my own challenges. How we play the game is up to us, and whether we enjoy it or not-assuming the game meets our tastes-is also up to us.

 

[icehawk]

You missed the most important reason……… real F2P’s don’t wanna pay for the game…….

Until they make a F2P option for Classic…… well u ain’t going to see too many F2P’s……

 

[chelly]

Competition can keep a community alive, until it overpowers everything else. A community exists because of a certain amount of respect and care among its members, and when you lose those, that's when competition eats a community alive. The Retail community alone isn't the cause, it's the meta-chasers of every version that set the standard of success, and the players that then choose to judge others and their own experience based on that standard.

Can we frame this please?

This was painfully true in SL and is the reason we don’t have bracket activity now.

Some retail meta chasers who are probably not even here need to read this part again carefully and try to understand.

 

[Grahamdab]

For me more than anything, it's that I already played classic when it was "retail". I don't hate any flavor of classic, but to use a tired colloquialism "been there, done that".

Twinking is really only fullfilling when I am on the cutting edge, discovering new methods and gear and new ways of breaking the game and bending it over backwards in it's current form. Making my own fun and creating something unique, as well as having access to my entire 20 years of account progress.

Since classic is all but solved already, it feels like I would just be playing a MOBA with extra steps. Some of my best memories were twinking in classic vanilla, TBC, and Wrath, but it was only as fun as it was for me then because it was new and I felt like I was discovering something obscure after I had already made my way to max level.

I don't enjoy PVP as much as I did years ago, nor do I have the same finger dexterity I used to, so the limited pvp scene of retail twinking was a prety natural shift for me over the years and I have no real desire to return to that, again "been there, done that".

These days I more enjoy soloing group content at my leisure, exploration, and just building trophy characters that can punch way above their weight class in PVE content.

I still think retail needs to get rid of the separate xpoff queues, and stop pretending its for the benefit of new players. I, like many others got excited about making twinks after getting wrecked by one in a BG back in original vanilla. I do feel like back then people were more willing to accept that being bad or having bad gear was nobody's fault but their own, people didn't seem to act so entitled to a win after zero preparation. I saw what was possible and got excited to figure out how to elevate myself to that level, rather than cry foul on the forums.

I'm glad Classic Wow exists, but I've already experienced getting a lucky fishing hat after months of grinding, and getting an Arena Grandmaster trinket completely solo for the first time back when I only knew a handfull of other people who had it.

No hate, just no interest.

 

[Bakedaflol]

I may be totally off on this, but what drew me away from classic was that it was already decided/solved for the most part. Everyone knew all the gear to get, which classes were superior, and terrain exploits/gameplay advantages.

The most fun I have is discovering what works and what doesn't when a new expansion drops. Combing over dungeon journal and wowhead to find what I would consider to be the optimal gearset to use and then testing it out and tweaking/iterating through trial and error as the expansion progresses is so fun! Unfortunately this is entirely lost within the true classic era expansions in my personal opinion.

When I first joined the 20s bracket I had an idea of how to gear/play hpally that was completely counter to what everyone else thought was the way to go, and it was really fun for me to go against the grain in a successful way given the limitations of a level cap. If you look at the people that have stuck with the 20/ftp bracket long term, they seem to share that mindset of seeing how far they can take things given the limitations (be it achievement hunting, gearing, or collecting, etc). If everyone has already figured all that out, where's the fun in that?

With Dragonflight, We allready knew all these things long before pre-patch, except for the things that were added without word.
And I think having gf'ed gear most of the expansion kinda ruined it abit for me this time around.

The most fun I had this xpac, was when making new characters that weren't bound by previous xpac-stuff
I don't think I'll be pre-prepping the way I did last time, ever again.. Cus tbh, gf'd items are a curse

 

[Kamandi888]

Impressed by these responses.

 

[Conzil]

Nice theory, but it's the Classic people that have made majority of the "Best of" threads

 

[chelly]

https://xpoff.com/threads/obligatory-end-of-wrath-best-of-19s-list.100118/unread

Damnit Conzil beat me.