Bracket Scaling in Legion

Glorifyd

Glorifyd

Legend
Im going to link my post on the Official Forums in hopes that some of you will help bump these issues to the attention of Blizzard. I posted this thread in the General Section because these changes do affect ALL brackets.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745166929#1

Without just copy/pasting the wall of text here, Ill give a brief TL: DR to summarize my concerns;
Currently, there will be a HUGE problem for ALL BRACKETS come Legion in terms of Balance. This is due to the removal of both the Character Lvl and iLvl Scaling systems, as well as the Merge of Exp On and Exp Off player bases. These changes will create the WORST difference between Max Lvls vs Non-Max Levels as well as Twinks vs Non-twinks this game has EVER seen.

Though some of you might not care about potentially SERIOUS imbalances in PvP, as this will just mean you are more OP on your Twink in comparison to levelers, I do know that there are some of you that do have enough competitive integrity to also support the idea of changes needing to be made.
 
Kirise said:
You and other XP-off players did some tremendous work to find these issues, Red. Here's to hoping XP-off players rally behind you.
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I know many 19s that jumped on the PTR and were comparing Templates and scaling, but due to them being at the max of the bracket, the data is very limited to the real experience we will be facing come Legion.

I truly hope that this is just an oversight by Blizzard and that these systems just simply havent been re-applied to the new PvP Template system, otherwise all this progress made by Blizzard to reduce the power gap between levelers and twinks has meant nothing.
 
Since when has PvP EVER been Balanced 100% at ANY Bracket Level in all of WoW's history? This is the one thing Blizzard has never been able to get right, Balance. And more often then not, it's End Game PvE that suffers due to Blizzards terrible changes to "fix" broken PvP that just end up screwing it up worse. Also, Blizzard is well known to try and Balance Level Cap PvP with little to no regard to how the changes effect any Level below that.
 
Ive never said that its ever been balanced 100%; I have said that this will make all brackets the MOST imbalanced in WoW history.

I also have said that if these 2 scaling systems were re-implemented to the addition of the PvP Template, the advantages of a Twink compared to a non-Twink would be the lowest that it has ever been - ranging from .7% to 2.6% depending on the bracket and amount of grandfathered gear.

Also, earlier this month you said that you could PvP naked in Legion, but that is completely untrue.
 
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I did say that based off of watching Asmongold talk about doing it himself in Alpha, that has since been changed/fixed and I haven't repeated that comment since ;)

There are Brackets where the iLvL "advantage" will certainly be less than ~2.5% or so while at least one Bracket will have an absurd Advantage (Twinks) over standard Levelers. Also Blizz may very well disable White items from adding to the PvP Scaling inside BG's once it's Live, we won't know until that happens ofc. Without the gimmicke White items like 'The Rock' skewing things upwards, that may mean all lower Level Brackets may have a maximum disparity of 2-2.5%, which is almost nothing. The best we've been able to come up with so far for 10-19, 20-29 and 30-39 is ~3.8% and that's using a bunch of White crap like the Stratholme Lily. I believe 70-79 is even worse though some are going to try and use Kalu'ak Fishing Pole.

3.8% in the 10-19 Bracket is maybe 5 Stat difference, and that's not going to really give any advantage. At 20-29 that 3.8% is maybe 8-10 Stats, nothing to write home about. The only (2) Brackets I see this being a possible problem is 90-99 (right now it's looking like upwards of 16% advantage) and 100-109 (not much advantage in iLvL but the Artifact Weapon being maxed on a Twink (as far as one can do so) will probably make a large difference.
 
Yes, those numbers of ~3.8% are next to nothing and I would give my first born child to make that the maximum difference possible. The problem is, as I found out on the PTR, the math doesnt add up because the system everyone used as a BASE is lower than the current iLvl Thresholds of each bracket that we have currently.

We were all under the assumption that the current lvl and ilvl scaling systems would remain the same and use this as our base for the theorized delta, but without those systems the base is drastically lower, and this is before we go into the Heirlooms registering as iLvl 1 for some reason.
 
So on PTR, the static iLvL for say the 10-19 Bracket isn't based off 24, what Looms scale to at 19? If not, wtf are they scaling to? Blizzard stated (though never gave actual numbers) that each Bracket would scale to roughly what Looms do now at x9. I also imagine that since the PTR is using the most recent Beta Build that it's probably just a bug with the new Template system and will be rectified once it's Live, or before.
 
DeLindsay said:
So on PTR, the static iLvL for say the 10-19 Bracket isn't based off 24, what Looms scale to at 19? If not, wtf are they scaling to? Blizzard stated (though never gave actual numbers) that each Bracket would scale to roughly what Looms do now at x9.
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You should really read my post before commenting, as I have answered this in detail as to all of the current problems...
 
Wow, I gotta give you props for checking every single Character Level from 10-100 and every single possible Heirloom at each of those Character Levels to come up with "it currently seems to read any and all Heirloom items as an Item Level of 1", /sarcasm.

Yes I get that you said it is reading the Looms that you tested as iLvL 1 and it is OBVIOUSLY a bug that we can only hope Blizz will fix. It's extremely unlikely that Blizz won't fix the Templates to be in line with what they originally stated as scaling to roughly the equivalent of Heirlooms at x9 of each Bracket. This may have been on PTR but it is after all a still in progress as being tested Beta build. Making a long post spouting the end of the world at Blizz isn't terribly useful.

"I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Low Level PvP will easily be the most imbalanced this game has ever seen if the combination of these issues make it to Live Severs." Another non-fact. Even if 100% of Heirlooms made it to Live displaying iLvL 1 in BG's and therefore bringing down the Average iLvL of any Player using Looms, it would still only mean a 3-5% Advantage to the Player wearing full non-Loom GF'd gear, no where even remotely close to the Armageddon you make it out to be for Low Level Brackets.

Once Blizzard gets all the bugs worked out, the Templates working correctly and we can properly test it I think you'll find that their solution to PvP 'Balance' is as reasonable as Blizzard is going to get, knowing their track record. I'm not saying nobody should bring broken shit to Blizz's attention but the entire tone of your post is as if you actually think how it is on PTR currently is how it's going to be on Live in just over a month.
 
It's likely a build issue, things just fell through the cracks or something. I'd imagine it gets fixed at some point, if not before prepatch launch. Blizzard only manages to take seven years when squashing a reported bug. I just have a question though about these bugs. Are they present in normal BGs? Because if they aren't, that would explain why you encountered them - Skirmishes and Wargames are generally not consistent in design with BGs and rated arena (whether the game mode doesn't need the same feature or Blizzard just forgets to be consistent).
 
DeLindsay said:
"I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Low Level PvP will easily be the most imbalanced this game has ever seen if the combination of these issues make it to Live Severs." Another non-fact. Even if 100% of Heirlooms made it to Live displaying iLvL 1 in BG's and therefore bringing down the Average iLvL of any Player using Looms, it would still only mean a 3-5% Advantage to the Player wearing full non-Loom GF'd gear, no where even remotely close to the Armageddon you make it out to be for Low Level Brackets.
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You're fixating on the wrong issue, and that's why Glorifyd told you to go back and reread his post. You are correct that non-scaling of heirlooms and ilvl templates will have a minimal impact on their own, but non-scaling of character levels will make a huge impact in every PvP bracket from 50 on up, and in 20-29.

Blizzard has a troubling track record of major oversights like this, especially with expansion prepatches. Blizzard took months to fix a BG queue issue in 4.0.3, and then when Blizz finally fixed the issue in 4.0.6, they overlooked the 60-64 bracket until 4.1 came out. The 60-64 bracket had to wait four extra months to play more than 4 BGs a day, for a total of over half a year of botched battlegrounds.

As everyone says, this is likely a relatively easy fix for Blizzard. But the issue needs attention now to escalate up Blizzard's priority list before it goes live.

Edit: removed the paragraph about how this will benefit 10s, since I forgot the PvP template would prevent secondary stat stacking.
 
Dont worry lads. if shit goes south we all can relog our outlaw rogues and oneshot plebs until it gets fixed.
 
Honestly, I dont assume the Twinks will rage at anything. I would bet money that if these changes go live (again, prefacing with this) that the non-twink population would be so under powered in comparison that we would see the most rage posts about the imbalance from THEM than we ever have - and rightfully so.
 
GaithM LegacyBrah said:
can you guys stop worrying about what blizz does. let them do whatever they want for once. this expansion imo is really good, well what i have seen from it. let them handle the game on there own.
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You misunderstand -- you're absolutely right, this expansion looks really good, and Blizzard asked for feedback on some essential system changes in beta and the PTR. This is the chance to give Blizzard really important feedback.
 
I think the miss miss miss is the biggest problem here. And the occasional skull level players :/
 
In the 10-19 Bracket 10's certainly do miss on 19's, but not miss miss miss like what is reported in the 60-69 or 70-79 Bracket. I have no idea why one Bracket isn't as bad as another when it's the exact same Character Level difference and thus should be the exact same miss chance. I haven't looked at Recount since I started BG'ing on my 10's since 7.0 but I'd wager the miss chance is about 10-12%. While that sucks it's no where near game changing and right now several 10 Classes/Specs (Disc obv) are steamrolling 19's even with the added miss.

I'm at work so I can't bump your Forum Thread right now but I'll do so when I get home. I too want all the problems fixed, even the stupid OP Disc Priests. The only thing I'd be nervous about Blizz changing is the scaling, let me explain. Blizz has a habit of half doing thing. If they can somehow fix 10's Secondary Stat scaling (without fucking up every Level from 1-110) that's fine, but knowing Blizz they'd do that but NOT scale 10's to 19 in BG's so we'd have shit Stats and a higher miss chance and that's not right.

The easy way to fix some of this is to scale every Player to x9 as soon as they enter a BG, period. That would eliminate the added miss chance of the lower Levels of each Bracket while also reducing (if not eliminating) the added Secondary Stat scaling of the x0's of each Bracket and even x1's in the case of the 90-99 Bracket. By removing Enchants, Set Bonuses, etc from Instanced PvP, Blizz was stating they wanted everyone to be on a level playing field but by NOT Scaling lower Levels to x9 they destroy any chance of any Balance, even with Gear having less of an effect.

Yes, you are certainly going to take flak for your post, I'm one of them that doesn't like change. All of us 10's were sick and tired of the '19s Master Race' douches constantly berating us just because we chose to Twink 10. Now that's all changed because 10's are back in a big way and 19's HATE it. Bringing light to Blizzard directly that 10's are back to great scaling is worrisome that we'll just end up being shoved to the side again like before... ALL TWINKS MATTER ;)

I'm also pissed because in an earlier 7.0 Patch Notes (before it hit) Blizzard very specifically said "Warlords Crafted limit has been removed" which can no longer be found in any Patch Notes and it has been changed to "Crafting limit has been removed". The only response I was able to find from any GM was that they always meant Legion Crafting and not WoD, if so why specifically state WARLORDS CRAFTING in a Blue Patch Notes post? As such my 99 Twink is sitting with a bag full of ~100K worth of 6/6 WoD Crafted Gear that she can't equip.

One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that 7.0 is nothing more than Live-Beta Testing. There will likely be Hotfixes and incremental Patches every single week until Legion hits to fix all the problems that Blizz HAS KNOWN ABOUT since Alpha, and then probably another 2 months after it's Live.
 
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